There’s No Place Like Home Season Two Episode Four: Jealousy

INTRO: This series comes with a content note for anyone who has been through abuse or knows someone who has. Some of what you’ll hear in this podcast is distressing. 

In this series, you’ll hear violence and abuse described in a number of different ways. Some people use the term domestic violence, some family violence. We acknowledge that production took place on what always has been, and always will be, Aboriginal land.

TARANG: My name is Tarang Chawla and my sister Niki was killed by her partner in 2015. I’m a writer, broadcaster and anti-violence activist. I’m also the host of There’s No Place Like Home.

Today, we’re going to talk about jealousy; a unique kind of jealousy specific to abusive partners. It’s a kind of jealousy that manifests in forms of abuse we’ve already discussed this season – like gaslighting.

BRIAN SULLIVAN: It’s one of the major warning signs, for danger ahead… and I don’t tend to use the word jealous on its own, I might be jealous of a man who’s got a flourishing thick, full head of hair. That’s not the kind of jealousy we’re talking about. What we’re talking about here is what I call sexual jealousy. So that’s about ownership.

TARANG CHAWLA: Brian Sullivan is the founder of Sicura DV, a company that provides domestic violence intervention education and training.

Brian says sexual jealousy stems from misogyny – the patriarchal view of women as men’s property. For an abuser, sexual jealousy isn’t about desire – it’s about entitlement.

BRIAN SULLIVAN: Characteristic of these men’s profiles, the sexual jealousy, you’re off limits to other men now, because men can’t be trusted. So that’s why you have to be around me all the time. That’s why I will stalk you, I will ring you during the day to find out what you’re doing, where you are. I might even put cameras in the house to check that no one else is in the house, if I’m a high risk offender.

TARANG CHAWLA: Particularly in a new relationship, possessiveness and jealousy can look and feel like infatuation and devotion. But these behaviours are borne from control not love.

BRIAN SULLIVAN: It’s intentional, it’s deliberate. And it’s purposeful. It’s about a man getting what he wants when he wants it, whenever he wants. So it serves his intentions. And that means to me, he’s a very dangerous man.

TARANG CHAWLA: Which brings me to Anya. Anya* experienced years of abuse at the hands of her then-partner David*. We have changed their names for privacy.

ANYA*: We were involved in the same community. So we knew a lot about each other, we sort of evolved, it was quite romantic. In the beginning, it was that sort of friends to lovers kind of journey, and I definitely got swept up in it.

TARANG CHAWLA: Anya* noticed David’s* attitude towards their friends begin to change. 

ANYA*: He tried to convince me that all men were dangerous, at the beginning of our relationship. He was trying to convince me that every man was out there to get something. So like even people who I was friends with, who would talk to me, he’d be like, ‘You know, that person wants to sleep with you. Right? You know, you’re giving them the wrong impression, right.’

TARANG CHAWLA: At first, it wasn’t scary. 

ANYA*: At the time it was easier to just sort of go ‘Oh, okay, well, that’s just a misunderstanding. And this person’s a little bit too forward.’ But it wasn’t malicious in the beginning. It became malicious later – it was openly cruel and hurtful and scary after we already told each other that we were in love.

TARANG CHAWLA: Jealousy and possessiveness are easily mistaken for signs of passion when actually they are often warning signs of abuse. 

BRIAN SULLIVAN: These men can be very charming in inverted commas. It’s not real charm, it’s cunning and conniving. They can play the relationship game sufficiently well enough early on. To gain that level of commitment and to overwhelm this woman, with charm and attention. And romance. But it’s a deadly romance.

TARANG CHAWLA: Brian Sullivan says that once an abuser trusts their partner is in love and committed to them, that’s when abusive and controlling behaviour escalates.

BRIAN SULLIVAN: Once you’re in a relationship with me once I’ve got you locked in, or trapped in that relationship, you are mine, my property, my sexual property, you’re no one else’s.

You shouldn’t be talking about other men, you shouldn’t be looking at other men. And in fact, if you do look at another man, or talk to another man, and it may be completely innocent, according to your worldview, but to my worldview, you’re plotting infidelity, you’re talking about me, you’re wanting to leave the relationship and get with him. So it’s a very dangerous and high risk. 

TARANG CHAWLA: An abuser will often control who their partner sees, restrict what they wear or isolate their partner from their support systems.

Abusers may also expect their partners to account for their whereabouts at all times or pay the consequences when they don’t. 

Sue and Lloyd Clarke, the parents of Hannah Clarke, said this is exactly what happened to their daughter.

SUE CLARKE: He would constantly call her to see where she was, send text messages: ‘How come you’re not home yet? You should have left the gym at five o’clock. It’s now 5:30. Why aren’t you home? You should be home. Who you’ve been talking to? 

TARANG CHAWLA: You would have heard the name Hannah Clarke. Hannah and her children – Aaliyah, Leiana and Trey – were killed by Hannah’s ex partner – in Brisbane in 2020.

The perpetrator, who was also the children’s father, wasn’t physically violent before their murders, as far as we know. But he was extremely controlling of Hannah and he showed signs of sexual jealousy throughout their relationship.

SUE CLARKE: In the early days, he made Hannah shut down her Facebook page. He stopped her from seeing her best friend.

LLOYD CLARKE: He’d go through her messages.

TARANG CHAWLA: He also controlled what Hannah wore. 

SUE CLARKE: Hannah was never allowed to wear pink. 

TARANG CHAWLA: Today, pink is one of the colours for the Small Steps 4 Hannah Foundation, which Sue and Lloyd Clarke have established.

They use the colour pink in their branding, logo and merchandise because Hannah was not allowed to wear this colour. 

SUE CLARKE: We wanted pink out there everywhere.

TARANG CHAWLA: They also use the term, HALT, as part of their brand’s mission to HALT domestic and family violence.

SUE CLARKE: HALT actually stands for all their names. So Hannah, Aaliyah, Laianah and Trey. 

TARANG CHAWLA: A jealous abuser will commonly show up at their partner’s workplace unannounced and uninvited.

ANYA*: He would turn up to my work all the time. And sometimes it was nice. And then sometimes it was not. And it would be uncomfortable if I was ever working I’d be chatting to guys from tech and he would walk in on me talking to a producer who’s 45 years old and completely harmless. That night, I would have to explain to him, you know, was I having an affair with the technical director at work, because there was a man in my vicinity, and I had to speak to him.

TARANG CHAWLA: Abusers commonly accuse their partner of having imagined affairs. It’s a tactic designed to make their partner second guess their interactions with others and further isolate themselves, to reduce the risk of further accusations.

Jane Matts, a victim-survivor-advocate who you met in the last episode, says abusers make up narratives fueled by jealousy to control their partner’s movements. 

JANE MATTS: When it comes to jealousy it’s more around, you know, if they can’t control them anymore, how can they create further control? And quite often, they make up stories, such as you’re having an affair with a particular person, or you’ve gone out with the girls, and all of a sudden, you haven’t really gone out with the girls, you’ve got this new man in your life, or you’ve got this new woman in your life. And they start padding it out and making it even bigger.

TARANG CHAWLA: After leaving her abusive partner, Jane is now studying law and has founded the Sisters in Law project to help other women in need. 

JANE MATTS: I had worked with a mum, who was accused of having an affair because she had to go and change two tires on her car and she was going to be late for work. And they worked together. So she was late to work, and he wondered why she was late to work. And she said, ‘Well, I told you, I was going to get the two front tires changed, I’ve got registration due, and he’s created a story that said that the person that was changing the tires was the person you’re having an affair with, you’re having an affair with one of those guys there because they look good. And they are buff and I’m not buff. And, you know, this is all against me.

TARANG CHAWLA: DARVO is another tactic, often associated with sexual jealousy. 

It’s an acronym that spells out what people who perpetrate abuse do: Deny… Attack… And Reverse Victim and Offender. D – A – R – V – O.  Put simply, the abuser puts the blame on the victim-survivor and makes themself into the victim.

JANE MATTS: It became a narrative for him, for her. It made her quiet, she’d say ‘I just stopped talking, I stopped communicating because things were twisted, that never were true.’

TARANG CHAWLA: If going to work or out with friends or visiting family means a tirade of anger and abuse, avoidance can quickly become total isolation… as a way to keep the peace. 

ANYA*: Within the first few months, I kind of stopped talking to men, stopped believing that men could speak to me for any intention other than eventually getting into my pants. 

And it’s not that I genuinely believe that, it just became too hard. It became too hard to stay friends with boys, and to constantly have to explain that person is not trying to sleep with me. So I stopped.

TARANG CHAWLA: Anya’s experience shows how sexual jealousy is often linked to unhealthy expressions of masculinity – including this idea that men are dominant protectors who have to control the women in their lives. 

Men who hold these kinds of beliefs are more likely to perpetrate violence against women. 

Brian Sullivan says this is especially true when their power is challenged.

BRIAN SULLIVAN: This is a situation which I have to win, as the man. It’s not equal and mutual and egalitarian. It’s a situation where I’m the boss, I have to win. Relationships are really contests, I think, for many of these men, where the man has to be the victor. And where there’s a victor, there’s a victim, or someone who’s defeated, where there’s a winner, there’s a loser, where there’s someone who’s right, there has to be someone who’s in the wrong, where there’s someone who’s strong, there has to be someone who’s weak. And in these relationships, the man takes the top billing and the woman of course is second class and secondary in this space.

TARANG CHAWLA: In his book, Why Does He Do That? Lundy Bancroft writes that abusers use extreme jealousy to isolate their partners – because they want their partner’s life to be entirely focused on their needs.

In the beginning, Anya’s* partner took on the role of protector in their relationship.

ANYA*: I was being encouraged to be soft and feel my feelings and not be independent, which I had been. Looking back now, I can recognise that was a ploy. Telling my hyper- independent girlfriends it’s time for her to rely on other people.

TARANG CHAWLA: Six months later, Anya’s world had grown small. Her life revolved entirely around David. But this didn’t stop his jealousy. In fact, Anya’s partner would become abusive when things weren’t going well at work or other parts of his life.

ANYA*: It would be because he missed out on a promotion at work, or he wasn’t getting his due at work or he wasn’t being celebrated or praised enough. Things that hurt, sure, but things that have happened to normal people all the time through the course of life that don’t then turn around and decide to systematically abuse someone else.

TARANG CHAWLA: So-called rules and punishments for breaking them are a hallmark of abusive relationships. They allow abusers to assert dominance over their partner. A sense of ownership, not equality. 

SUE CLARKE: She had to respect him at all times. When they were out, if he felt she’d said something even in jest, that may belittled him in his eyes, there would be problems. He’d lose it. He could go for days without speaking to her.

TARANG CHAWLA: Sue and Lloyd Clarke say Hannah’s killer would punish her if she didn’t have sex with him every night.

SUE CLARKE: If she refused sex nightly, there was a problem. And if she didn’t look like she was enjoying the sex each night, there was a problem. he would punish her with not speaking to her – and he would go for days. Or he had stormed out of the house and turned his phone off or taken the children out and been non-contactable. So she had no idea where the children were. And that was her punishment to make her suffer.

TARANG CHAWLA: So how do you tell the difference between the sexual jealousy we see from abusive partners, and the kind of jealousy that we all feel sometimes? 

Lundy Bancroft writes that jealous feelings are different to jealous behaviours.

A new partner might feel anxious about their lover’s connections with others. The feeling is natural and understandable. It’s the action that might follow that can be a red flag.

If a partner expects you to give up your freedom in order to accommodate their jealousy, Bancroft argues it’s control – not love – motivating them.

And Brian Sullivan agrees.

BRIAN SULLIVAN: These aren’t men having a bad day. These aren’t men who have random accidental explosions of violence. 

TARANG CHAWLA: Brian says the difference between jealous feelings and jealous behaviours lies in what happens when a potential victim doesn’t follow their partner’s rules.

BRIAN SULLIVAN: How does this man react when I don’t do what he wants me to? Or don’t follow my life, according to his rules and regulations. What’s his reaction? And he may be very regulated. But you know, generally, you can see, I would think there’s a warning sign there. If he reacts in some kind of tantrum-y way, or hysterical, histrionic way? Or in a way that really is not proportionate to you saying no.

TARANG CHAWLA: If you’re in a relationship and these stories feel or sound familiar… then there are some questions you can ask yourself.

Is your partner calling you incessantly throughout the day? 

Are they consistently arriving at your work or on a night out with your friends unannounced?

Do they insist on spending every waking moment together?

Does your partner justify their jealousy by saying they have never been so in love, so crazy about someone before? 

Are they seeking to influence the way you dress, saying your clothing is too sexy, revealing or provocative?

Sue Clarke says these behaviours are warning signs. Warning signs that can be mistaken for love.

SUE CLARKE: When he would ring Hannah constantly throughout the day, I can remember in the early days saying to Hannah, ‘Gee, your father doesn’t call me! Clearly he doesn’t care.’ But, you know, once you realise what it is, it’s not love at all.

TARANG CHAWLA: Sue believes that a person’s colleagues play an important role in picking up on possible warning signs.

SUE CLARKE: As a work colleague, be aware, if one of your workmates is getting a lot of phone calls from their partner, ‘just called to say I love you, just checking how you are’ or they’re dropping in to bring lunch in or just dropping into the workplace unannounced, you know, it seems like ‘Oh, how lovely, you know, they really love their partner,’ but it is another form of control, knowing where they are continually.

So if you notice these sorts of behaviours happening, just be aware and take note and if you feel you can, ask your colleague, ‘Hey, is everything okay? How is your relationship? You can broach that with them.

TARANG CHAWLA: If you’re in the position of supporting a colleague, it’s important to have empathy for the complexity of their situation. Know that their decisions are governed by pressures and threats that you may not understand or be aware of. And recognise that they may welcome your support… but still not be comfortable disclosing the abuse to you.

SUE CLARKE: Understand your workmate may be going through this and to just be there for them, listen to them. Help them if they need help, but also understand if they can’t go for drinks after work or can’t come to the Christmas party. And it’s not that they’re snobs or dislike you. It’s just that it’s better for them to go home. It’s safer for them sometimes and just makes their life easier. And if you can understand that and not press them.

TARANG CHAWLA: Anya* says that to support a loved one, you have to listen, that you can give advice and that you must suspend any sense of judgement. 

ANYA*: If you want to help people in a situation, you cannot judge them.

One of the most detrimental things for people in this situation is when they talk to their friends about a violent manipulative relationship and they get pop-culture dating advice in return. That is not helpful. That makes people stop talking. That makes people feel judged. And like they deserve the violence that they got.  

TARANG CHAWLA: Brian says men have a role to play when it comes to influencing abusers to stop their dangerous and damaging behaviour.

BRIAN SULLIVAN: We can’t change for him. We can’t do the work for him. But we can work with him and guide and support that change. 

TARANG CHAWLA: If you’re a man and you see another bloke exhibiting these kinds of abusive behaviours, then Brian says you can try to hold them accountable – if it is safe and appropriate, and if the person being abused wants you to intervene.

BRIAN SULLIVAN: It’s not rubbing a man’s nose in his abusive, aggressive ways, that doesn’t help anyone change, that just creates resistance and defensiveness, and they’ll dig their heels in. 

TARANG CHAWLA: Brian gave us some examples from his men’s behaviour change program… 

However, we’ll note that the agency of the victim-survivor is paramount, as is your safety, and that it may not be appropriate or safe to step in in the way that Brian – a trained professional – does in his controlled environment.

BRIAN SULLIVAN: By confronting a man about his violence, I don’t mean backing him into a corner… I don’t mean shirt-fronting him or using power and control over him. I mean presenting him with the discrepancies in his story: ‘You say you want to be a good dad. And yet we know that domestic violence that you’re perpetrating does incredible harm to children. How do you live with those two views? That you want to be a good dad, and yet you’re being abusive to their mother?’ So that’s a confrontation. That’s pointing out a discrepancy in his story. And it’s making him face up to the fact that you can’t have both. You can’t be a violent man and be a good father, that doesn’t work – that’s not possible. 

TARANG CHAWLA: In his programs, Brian listens to these men’s responses without accepting their narrative. 

BRIAN SULLIVAN: Their narratives will always be about denial, minimising, blaming, excusing, justifying the violence initially, but to listen to them as human beings and respect them. But always with that firmness, that we are here to change violence, we’re not here to collude with you. We’re not here to you know, focus on your depression or your anxiety or your alcohol and drugs, which may be real problems. But they are not what we’re going to deal with in this group.

TARANG CHAWLA: While we’re not all frontline workers who can confront potentially dangerous people, this knowledge – that there is never an excuse for perpetrating abuse against another person – is something we can all keep in mind. 

Brian says men have a particular part to play in preventing abuse – and in using their influence to change the cultures that underpin violence against women.

Hannah Clarke’s father, Lloyd Clarke, is one of those role models. 

LLOYD CLARKE: No one should have that unequal power, or have the total power in a relationship that should be shared.

TARANG CHAWLA: Since Hannah and her children were killed, Lloyd and his wife Sue have campaigned tirelessly to end domestic and family violence, primarily by building awareness around coercive control through their Small Steps 4 Hannah Foundation.

Lloyd says that he himself grew up in a violent home but made a conscious choice to not be like his father.

LLOYD CLARKE: I had a choice to make, and I made a choice not to be like him. You can make a choice and change that cycle. It’s not easy. But you can make that choice. You need to talk to other males, let your emotions out. Don’t hold your emotions in. Let someone know, talk about it.

TARANG CHAWLA: Lloyd makes an important point – that people choose to commit abuse. There is a false idea that people – but especially men – lose control. This is a myth. The man who killed my sister said the same. But committing abuse is a choice – regardless of what other things are happening in someone’s life. 

BRIAN SULLIVAN: Silence is violence. So if we’re not talking about his violence and abuse and focusing, it’s on his mental health, or his level of trauma, or his unemployment, or, or his drugs and alcohol problems. If we’re doing anything and everything but focusing on his violence, then I think we’re doing a disservice. And we’re colluding with him. We need to focus on his violence, primarily.

TARANG CHAWLA: Safe and Equal CEO Tania Farha points out that people who perpetrate intimate partner abuse don’t “lose control” with their colleagues, their boss, or strangers – times they could be held immediately accountable by others.

TANIA FARHA: How perpetrators act in public versus how they act in at home is really problematic, because it’s a controlled behavior, they control their own behavior too, it’s a decision, you know, for them to use. It’s not like it’s an uncontrolled behaviour.

TARANG CHAWLA: After what she’s lived through, Anya* has some advice. She says you should always stay connected to the people who care about you, as best you can.

ANYA*: The more people that you have around you, who will listen to your flaws and your mistakes and your failures and still say, ‘Well, you don’t deserve to be hit and you don’t deserve to be scared and you don’t deserve to be manipulated. And that could have happened to anybody.’ The more people helped me recognise that it was a complex situation that I didn’t just wake up in, it took years of breaking who I was down as a person to be controlled to that level. They were the people that were helpful.

TARANG CHAWLA: Next week on There’s No Place Like Home we’ll explore how technology can be used to abuse.

TARANG CHAWLA: See you then.

OUTRO: There’s No Place Like Home is a Future Women podcast in collaboration with our proud partner, Commonwealth Bank, who are committed to helping end financial abuse through CommBank Next Chapter. 

No matter who you bank with, if you are worried about your finances because of domestic and family violence, you can contact CommBank’s Next Chapter Team.

Contact the team on 1800 222 387, within Australia or visit commbank.com.au/nextchapter.If you need help or advice, please check the shownotes for phone numbers for confidential support.

If you enjoyed this podcast, please rate and review. It will help these important stories to reach more people’s ears. For more information about There’s No Place Like Home, or to join the movement, please head to futurewomen.com.

This episode was produced by Jamila Rizvi, Emily Brooks, Mel Fulton, Sally Spicer, Hannah Fahour and Tarang Chawla. Editing by Bad Producer Productions. Artwork by Patti Andrews.